This entire thing just tickles me in a way that I'm too tired to describe. The speed it spread, the censorship on dig--and more importantly, the insurgence. Fuck, it's everything I can do to not go off and write some incredibly lame, sappy post about the future, freedom, society and all that garbage.
Err.. didnt they already figure this code out a month or two? Or was that for blueray? Either way, some pretty crazy stuff. The 'community' won this round, but depending on what they retaliate with and who they shut down, its possible to lose still. Though theres security in numbers. If every major website online hosted it, id be curious if a lawsuit against any particular company/sire would stand up in court.
Some kind of giant robot that destroys the world governments and takes over, dishing out death to anyone who spouts the number?
Nah that pry wouldn't be enough...
The 'community' won this round, but depending on what they retaliate with and who they shut down, its possible to lose still.
WAIT! I FIGURED IT OUT!
The government's giant mass-amnesia ray, combined with a gigantic swordfish-style virus that effects everyone's computer everywhere even if it's not on a network or even plugged in.
The encryption key has been cracked, nothing is going to "un-crack" it.
I meant that the 'community' has basically said "We found out your secret, and theres nothing you can do now." Technically thats true, but if those guys wanted to put up a real fight, they could probably take a bunch of websites offline in spite, legally.
That would be a slap in the face to the community, or could be potentially devastating if they were able to make a successful case against one of the sites who posted the 'news.'
Not saying that they would, but the politics of hacking goes back and forth like that sometimes. Happened quite a few times in heavy emulation days. (Late 90's and early 2000's)
How could it be "potentially devastating"? You're talking about several hundred thousand sites (millions by this point) who posted it in scores of different nations.
Explain how successful legal action against even 20,000 of these (an impossible task, even if they were all located in the states--the court system would be flooded) would help in the slightest bit.
LiQUiD was harsh, but I tend to agree with him. Only a giant mass-amnesia ray would work, I think.
The problem is, even if they took down some "big name" sites in spite, like Digg for example one of two things would happen within 6 minutes and 35 seconds of the site going down:
1) Someone will ensure the site comes back up, offering their hardware, services, and soul to the operators of the site.
2) People will flock to a different similar site, as in the case of digg there are dozens of others.
Look at it this way, when people started posting about the code on digg, digg started censoring the posts, deleting them as fast as they could in a panic thinking "Oh shit this is going to get us shut down for sure.".
After seeing the sheer volume of posts all over the web, they got some peace of mind, and allowed the posts about the code to continue.
They dont need to take down 20,000 sites, they only need to intimidate and or file lawsuits against the big guys. Industry favorites. That would be sure to piss off a lot of people. Like i say, not that they would, but that dosnt mean that they couldnt 'strike back' against people who are spreading the code. Every pirate knew the code before mass media did, so it would be pointless to try and 'stop' it.
Lets put it this way, copy protection pretty much always gets cracked, and often within a few days or weeks of its release. Yet every game and movie, and many audio studio companies still buy and use this protection on their published material, knowing that it only stops the most lazy/inept of people from viewing protected content. Which pretty much only includes the elderly, and kids under 10.
The only reason that they would go after places like digg in the first place is that they want to show the public that they are still in control, even after they have lost their code. And to do that they have to send a message to someone. Going to where the most people are listening is the best way.
Dosnt have to have any effect, other than protecting the companies assets and its pride. If you let people get away with stealing from you, they will think its okay to continue to steal from you. If someone kicks your ass and they get away with it scott free, chances are when they need someone to beat on for fun, you will be their next target. Unfortunately thats how it works in todays schools, and yesterdays schools. Thats also how politics and corporate business seems to work. They just use bigger and more fancy words like corporate subterfuge.
Then again we are talking HD-DVD and not Securom. They cant do a lot to protect the discs that are already out there, except change the code for the newer content, or devise a new scheme. Seems that if the code has been found once, next time around it will be found in 1/100 the time. That means whatever company wrote the protection scheme just went out of business if they cant put some spin control on it and either get it out of the public eye, or make someone pay for exposing them.
Then again im no expert in these matters, but thats what seems pretty obvious, and in-theme with the sorts of things these types of companies do.
Protecting pride? I won't touch that one. Protecting assets? Not a chance.
They'd have been far better off to just keep quiet. The number was released in February. Nobody cared until they made a fuss. It's human nature to identify with the little guy. As soon as they start going after any smaller entity (digg, whatever) people who normally wouldn't bother or care will start beating on them.
I would also argue that it is not how corporate business works. You always have your litigation bullies whose entire business model is based on lawsuits (SCO, etc.) and you always have your dying industries who use litigation to postpone their impending doom (RIAA, etc.) -- but these make up a tiny, tiny portion of corporations.
Never blame on malice that which can be sufficiently explained by incompetence.
The BBC says that the AACS business group has vowed to fight back against those sites that have published the software key for breaking the encryption on HD-DVDs.
He said tracking down everyone who had published the keys was a "resource intensive exercise". A search on Google shows almost 700,000 pages have published the key. Mr Ayers said that while he could not reveal the specific steps the group would be taking, it would be using both "legal and technical" steps to prevent the circumvention of copy protection.
SCO also promised they'd shut down Linux due to patent infringement. Nobody took them seriously.
AACS is going to say whatever they want in a press release. It doesn't change a thing.
Here's a new press release:
Quote:
The DeadGod.net forums state that the DranoK god entity has vowed to fight back against those government entities that insist on maintaining the income tax. He said tracking down all people in favor of the income tax was a "resource intensive exercise". A search on Google shows almost 700,000 pages supporting the income tax. DranoK said he could not reveal the specific steps DeadGod would be taking, but that it would be using both "legal and technical" steps to eliminate the income tax.
They're like a rabid dog that's lost it's mind and thinks it can stop the wind by barking at it for hours and hours and hours.
The butterfly effect.. Dogs arnt really just barking at the wind, it just looks like it. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect) Dogs bark at the wind in order to stop the butterflies from destroying the world.
The thing is that SCO didnt just bark at the wind, they put some serious investment into doing exactly what they said they were going to do. Whether or not your cause is something you can establish a win for or not dosnt matter so much as how committed you are to following through with your promises to deal with the situation.
We all know that they cant reverse the damage done, but i believe they will make a good attempt at quelling this issue with the code. Theres not a lot of point in them doing it, other than to show everyone that they wont accept people freely distributing their IP, or even profiting on it.
We all know that they cant reverse the damage done, but i believe they will make a good attempt at quelling this issue with the code. Theres not a lot of point in them doing it, other than to show everyone that they wont accept people freely distributing their IP, or even profiting on it.
So basically, their method of "fighting back" is spending a ton of money to make a lot of noise in hopes as being almost as effective in expressing their anger as a naked old man yelling at a cloud?
I'm sorry, but I don't care how much money they spend crying. Non-effective action can hardly be termed "fighting back" imho.
If you just sit back and do nothing, your investors lose faith, and with something as 'high profile' as such a protection mechanism, your customers are going to know well about the flaws in your software, and how you handle the fallout. Its obviously a very fine thread to walk. Im very interested in how it plays out.
These sorts of events make or break companies, particularly when the media and the public opinion get involved. Considering the coverage its pretty well on its way. If its not handled delicately they risk losing a lot of money pursuing dead ends, their customers pulling out, or investors jumping ship to the one which hasnt yet been cracked and distributed publicly in defiance.
Times have changed quite a bit, the internet gives people the feeling of anonymity. Often the feeling is justified, as is said its near pointless and fruitless to pursue. Even if the code could possibly fall under free speech, i think its technically considered the legal IP of the company.
Under that thought, letting people and major websites mock you by posting it all over the place, and even selling t-shirts, coffee mugs, and who knows what else. That would be very similar to displaying or selling artwork without the authors permission, or pirating/transmitting music you dont own the rights for. The former of which people have been successfully sued over, i cant speak to the latter, but im sure that law enforcement has been in the middle of more than once. Hell, didnt the guy who 'invented' the smiley face sue some company for printing it on t-shirts without his permission, and win? I forget what the case for that was exactly.
Im all for freedom of speech, and im happy that they broke the copy protection on those discs. We'd pay 1/4 less for our shit if we didnt have to pay for the protection software, R&D, tech support, compatibility and all that BS. But ive got to play devils advocate and say that people took it too far by spreading it all across the net. Thats like a public challenge, from the public. Im not really a big company person, but if i were i cant see that as a challenge that could go unanswered. It'd be bad for business. Then again so would anything they do id believe.
There's no point in me just repeating what I've said before. I'll just point out a few things:
1) AACS is a consortium, not a company. They don't have investors.
2) Times haven't changed "quite a bit". Things are the same now as they were when records were the demon. When cassette tapes were the demon. When VHS was the demon. When Tivo was the--you get the point.
3) Anonymity has little, if anything, to do with it. It's called civil disobedience. Being anonymously defiant is pointless. Which is why so many people on so many different sites did so with their regular username, or even on their own site where ownership can easily be tracked (even DeadGod).
4) Law enforcement has never--and will never--be involved in copywrite infringement (such as displaying artwork, etc). At most (and this would be quite rare, indeed) federal or state marshals would be called in. There's a gigantic difference between civil law and criminal law.
5) Of course lawsuits will be filed. You've still not explained why this matters? I can sue you for living too close to the sun. It doesn't mean jack squat. My only argument against you is when you suggest that the AACP has some form of effective retaliation. Which they don't.
6) Treating customers as criminals is bad for business (why else must everything be encrypted?). Having idiot sales employees and retarded commission incentives are bad for business. Companies don't always do what's in their customers or even their own best interest.
Anyway, I'm done with this thread at this point. I think we've beaten it well past death.
So many people think that getting caught for copyright infringement will get their door smashed down and them arrested. Nothing could be farther from the truth.
As DranoK pointed out, Copyright is civil law, NOT criminal. You wouldn't get a cop knock and then laid out, you'd get some lawyer offering you bacon if you open the door and accept the summons.
This is a bit off-topic but I hate it when people continually spread the idea that you will be treated like a drug dealer for copyright infringement.
Also, it's been said on digg before so I'm just kind of repeating this, but: "I wasn't aware you could copyright a NUMBER."
The code is just a number.
Not some kind of magical decryption program contained in a 32 byte string.
DeadGod.Net - Cute Evil Atheists Encouraging critical thought and general enjoyment since 2001. Want to join our community? Have suggestions or comments? Contact Us or Visit our forums.
This entire thing just tickles me in a way that I'm too tired to describe. The speed it spread, the censorship on dig--and more importantly, the insurgence. Fuck, it's everything I can do to not go off and write some incredibly lame, sappy post about the future, freedom, society and all that garbage.
I'll just meow instead.
Meow. Meow. PurrrrPurrrrPurrrrPurrrrPurrrr
MEOW!!!
(nyuu! ^^)
Nah that pry wouldn't be enough...
The government's giant mass-amnesia ray, combined with a gigantic swordfish-style virus that effects everyone's computer everywhere even if it's not on a network or even plugged in.
The encryption key has been cracked, nothing is going to "un-crack" it.
I just couldn't hold back....
That would be a slap in the face to the community, or could be potentially devastating if they were able to make a successful case against one of the sites who posted the 'news.'
Not saying that they would, but the politics of hacking goes back and forth like that sometimes. Happened quite a few times in heavy emulation days. (Late 90's and early 2000's)
Explain how successful legal action against even 20,000 of these (an impossible task, even if they were all located in the states--the court system would be flooded) would help in the slightest bit.
LiQUiD was harsh, but I tend to agree with him. Only a giant mass-amnesia ray would work, I think.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/03/te...r=1&oref=login
The Internet has destroyed the concept of total censorship. Even in China.
Unless, of course, someone invents a giant mass-amnesia ray. God damn ray guns.
1) Someone will ensure the site comes back up, offering their hardware, services, and soul to the operators of the site.
2) People will flock to a different similar site, as in the case of digg there are dozens of others.
Look at it this way, when people started posting about the code on digg, digg started censoring the posts, deleting them as fast as they could in a panic thinking "Oh shit this is going to get us shut down for sure.".
After seeing the sheer volume of posts all over the web, they got some peace of mind, and allowed the posts about the code to continue.
There is power is numbers.
Lets put it this way, copy protection pretty much always gets cracked, and often within a few days or weeks of its release. Yet every game and movie, and many audio studio companies still buy and use this protection on their published material, knowing that it only stops the most lazy/inept of people from viewing protected content. Which pretty much only includes the elderly, and kids under 10.
The only reason that they would go after places like digg in the first place is that they want to show the public that they are still in control, even after they have lost their code. And to do that they have to send a message to someone. Going to where the most people are listening is the best way.
They can "strike back" as much as they want. You can sue for anything you like, don't ya know.
Doesn't mean it will have any sort of affect.
Then again we are talking HD-DVD and not Securom. They cant do a lot to protect the discs that are already out there, except change the code for the newer content, or devise a new scheme. Seems that if the code has been found once, next time around it will be found in 1/100 the time. That means whatever company wrote the protection scheme just went out of business if they cant put some spin control on it and either get it out of the public eye, or make someone pay for exposing them.
Then again im no expert in these matters, but thats what seems pretty obvious, and in-theme with the sorts of things these types of companies do.
They'd have been far better off to just keep quiet. The number was released in February. Nobody cared until they made a fuss. It's human nature to identify with the little guy. As soon as they start going after any smaller entity (digg, whatever) people who normally wouldn't bother or care will start beating on them.
I would also argue that it is not how corporate business works. You always have your litigation bullies whose entire business model is based on lawsuits (SCO, etc.) and you always have your dying industries who use litigation to postpone their impending doom (RIAA, etc.) -- but these make up a tiny, tiny portion of corporations.
Never blame on malice that which can be sufficiently explained by incompetence.
The BBC says that the AACS business group has vowed to fight back against those sites that have published the software key for breaking the encryption on HD-DVDs.
He said tracking down everyone who had published the keys was a "resource intensive exercise". A search on Google shows almost 700,000 pages have published the key. Mr Ayers said that while he could not reveal the specific steps the group would be taking, it would be using both "legal and technical" steps to prevent the circumvention of copy protection.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6623331.stm
AACS is going to say whatever they want in a press release. It doesn't change a thing.
Here's a new press release:
The thing is that SCO didnt just bark at the wind, they put some serious investment into doing exactly what they said they were going to do. Whether or not your cause is something you can establish a win for or not dosnt matter so much as how committed you are to following through with your promises to deal with the situation.
We all know that they cant reverse the damage done, but i believe they will make a good attempt at quelling this issue with the code. Theres not a lot of point in them doing it, other than to show everyone that they wont accept people freely distributing their IP, or even profiting on it.
I'm sorry, but I don't care how much money they spend crying. Non-effective action can hardly be termed "fighting back" imho.
These sorts of events make or break companies, particularly when the media and the public opinion get involved. Considering the coverage its pretty well on its way. If its not handled delicately they risk losing a lot of money pursuing dead ends, their customers pulling out, or investors jumping ship to the one which hasnt yet been cracked and distributed publicly in defiance.
Times have changed quite a bit, the internet gives people the feeling of anonymity. Often the feeling is justified, as is said its near pointless and fruitless to pursue. Even if the code could possibly fall under free speech, i think its technically considered the legal IP of the company.
Under that thought, letting people and major websites mock you by posting it all over the place, and even selling t-shirts, coffee mugs, and who knows what else. That would be very similar to displaying or selling artwork without the authors permission, or pirating/transmitting music you dont own the rights for. The former of which people have been successfully sued over, i cant speak to the latter, but im sure that law enforcement has been in the middle of more than once. Hell, didnt the guy who 'invented' the smiley face sue some company for printing it on t-shirts without his permission, and win? I forget what the case for that was exactly.
Im all for freedom of speech, and im happy that they broke the copy protection on those discs. We'd pay 1/4 less for our shit if we didnt have to pay for the protection software, R&D, tech support, compatibility and all that BS. But ive got to play devils advocate and say that people took it too far by spreading it all across the net. Thats like a public challenge, from the public. Im not really a big company person, but if i were i cant see that as a challenge that could go unanswered. It'd be bad for business. Then again so would anything they do id believe.
1) AACS is a consortium, not a company. They don't have investors.
2) Times haven't changed "quite a bit". Things are the same now as they were when records were the demon. When cassette tapes were the demon. When VHS was the demon. When Tivo was the--you get the point.
3) Anonymity has little, if anything, to do with it. It's called civil disobedience. Being anonymously defiant is pointless. Which is why so many people on so many different sites did so with their regular username, or even on their own site where ownership can easily be tracked (even DeadGod).
4) Law enforcement has never--and will never--be involved in copywrite infringement (such as displaying artwork, etc). At most (and this would be quite rare, indeed) federal or state marshals would be called in. There's a gigantic difference between civil law and criminal law.
5) Of course lawsuits will be filed. You've still not explained why this matters? I can sue you for living too close to the sun. It doesn't mean jack squat. My only argument against you is when you suggest that the AACP has some form of effective retaliation. Which they don't.
6) Treating customers as criminals is bad for business (why else must everything be encrypted?). Having idiot sales employees and retarded commission incentives are bad for business. Companies don't always do what's in their customers or even their own best interest.
Anyway, I'm done with this thread at this point. I think we've beaten it well past death.
As DranoK pointed out, Copyright is civil law, NOT criminal. You wouldn't get a cop knock and then laid out, you'd get some lawyer offering you bacon if you open the door and accept the summons.
This is a bit off-topic but I hate it when people continually spread the idea that you will be treated like a drug dealer for copyright infringement.
Also, it's been said on digg before so I'm just kind of repeating this, but: "I wasn't aware you could copyright a NUMBER."
The code is just a number.
Not some kind of magical decryption program contained in a 32 byte string.